Whenever I surf the web to find out what is happening in the ebike industry I get pretty depressed. The US ebike market is a wasteland of cheap underpowered hub-powered ugly ebikes and overpriced underpowered torque sensing mid-drives. *facepalm* It’s no wonder that no one is buying this crap. The biggest problem I see facing the ebike industry is the way they desperately cling to the 750W power limit on all their ebikes. The industry will never mature as long as they continue to do this.
This is the best selling ebike in America. The Ped-e-slow at ~$2,900 , 57lbs, 500W, 10Ah, 20Mph. You can’t make this stuff up. *yawn*
Imagine if the federal government said that all cars sold in the US could go no faster than 65 miles per hour or were only allowed to have 35hp of power (that’s all you need to get up to 65mph on level ground). One of two things would happen, people would either riot in the streets or they would just stop buying new cars. A 750W ebike is only capable of about 1 hp which is just about enough to get a 170lb person slowly up to about 20mph on a flat and level surface. This article will shed some light on why I will never own a street legal ebike (nor would I ever steal one) and why I really don’t have a problem with that.
The entry to the Bill HR 727 that pertains to power ratings read as follows:
``(b) For the purpose of this section, the term `low-speed electric bicycle' means a two- or three-wheeled vehicle with fully operable pedals and an electric motor of less than 750 watts (1 h.p.), whose maximum speed on a paved level surface, when powered solely by such a motor while ridden by an operator who weighs 170 pounds, is less than 20 mph.
A decent lawyer could argue that while many motors are rated nominally for 750W (like the BBS02) since they have a throttle that will dump 1300W with a 52v battery then technically the BBS02 is not really ‘street-legal’. Bafang makes it a point of stamping a big 750W on the bottom of their BBS02 in case there is ever any controversy around their motors being sold as street legal in the US. Does selling a 1300W motor as a 750W motor count as false advertising? Several of my BBSHD’s are stamped with 750W on the bottom of them but I’m regularly running them with a 50 Amp controller which dumps 2500W into the drive unit. 2500W is 3 1/3 times the legal limit, but a 2500W mid drive has a lot of benefits over a 750W (or less) hub motor. The biggest benefit is that a high power mid-drive ebike can keep up with regular city traffic.
… in the immortal words of NWA
On most freeway where people drive over 65mph it is illegal to go slower than about 40 or 45mph. The problem with slow traffic is that when everyone moves along at about the same rate, it’s much safer. Cars can easily maneuver around each other because the difference in their speeds is generally 5-10mph or so. For anyone who has tried to drive on the freeway at just 45mph in a car it is a harrowing experience. I drove the mother of my son over 500 miles down to Maryland to pick up a large box van (think Frito-Lay truck) she was buying for her new business. She drove it back on the freeway and I followed her about 100 feet behind her in my minivan with my hazards on. The box truck topped out at about 40-45 mph and 18 wheelers went flying by me at 75mph. For 8 hours I was white-knuckling it the whole way home.
Let’s think for a minute about highway speeds. Most roads have a speed limit of around 55mph, while in the cities it is about 30mph. Since only a crazy person would take an ebike on the freeway, and most people on normal highways where I live travel much closer to 60 or 65 we’ll use 60mph as a base point. What is safer, a bike moving at 10mph, 15mph, 20mph, 25mph or 30mph when cars are moving 60 mph? If you ask me this question I would say hands down the bikes are safer moving closer to 30 mph even in the shoulder, assuming they have decent brakes. In the city, for 2 years I commuted with a crappy 250W torque sensing Giant Twist that maxed out at 15mph. It was nice because the low-speed and power kept me out of trouble, but for all intents and purposes, it was the same experience as riding a bicycle in the city. If I hogged the lane cars would honk at me and the obscenities would fly.
Fast forward to last year where I spent the year testing the 50Amp BBSHD Ludicrous controller for Lunacycle on my Burning Chrome build. I rode that ebike like a motorcycle right in the middle of the lane all around the city. I accelerated much faster than the cars did and frankly I got pretty annoyed at how slow the cars really were. Cars clearly were annoyed with me when they saw me at a stop light taking up the whole lane, but once the light turned green I just left them in the dust. This is the way that ebikes were meant to be ridden.
You aren’t getting up this mountain with a 500W hub motor, a real mid drive ebike will open up new horizons for you
I allowed about 20 people to test drive my street bike with the 50 Amp controller. Every single one of them who tried it absolutely loved it. They didn’t just love the looks (it does look awesome), they loved it because of how it felt when you torqued on the throttle. I geared the BBSHD pretty low so that in the lowest gear it was all wheelies all the time. The ebike topped out at around 35mph which was fine with me, as I don’t really feel that comfortable riding an ebike over 30mph anyway. The top speed of your car is way more than what you regularly drive it at. Would you be happy with a car that had just enough power to get up to that speed and nothing more? Probably not. America is obsessed with power and automakers clamber over each other to build cars & trucks that produce way more power than most people will ever use. Yet in the entire ebike industry has somehow decided that there is nothing wrong with a 350W ebike.
Nobody wants that crap, and they just can’t see it.
A bike I would never buy and I was even rude enough to refuse to test, the Boar Surface 604
Let’s take the Boar Surface 604 for example. These guys are really nice and it’s not fair of me to pick on them since they offered to ship me a demo bike to test (I refused because I knew it would be a bad review). Here is a nice fatbike with a frame battery that looks like it could actually be decent in the snow. Yet they chose to sell this $2500 efatbike with a crappy 350W nominal motor and a tiny 13.5 Ah 36v battery. So many online reviews hail this as such a great ebike like EBR says:
The Boar ranks among the most fun, sturdy and beautiful fat e-bikes I’ve tried in a long while.
Are you kidding me? I’ve never tried the Surface 604 but I find it hard to believe that I would give that much praise to a 36v 350W nominal fat bike no matter how awesome it looked. The entire industry is stuck pushing underpowered crap while the entire ebike reviewer world heralds each new ebike as the ‘next best thing’ while they are all just obscenely underpowered. The last 3 winters I’ve gone out and rode every single day in the winter regardless of the conditions. Last night it rained and this morning I went out with my 50Amp BBSHD Phat Phuk with 5.5″ Snowshoe 2XL tires. It was miserable slogging through almost a foot of heavy wet snow uphill. Without 2500W of power I could NEVER think of riding today at all. A ‘street-legal’ 750 Watt peak hub motor fat bike is only going to be useful on groomed trails or with less than an inch of fluffy snow on the ground. In a word, for my application these underpowered bikes are for all intensive purposes, completely and utterly useless.
This is what my bike looked like today after my ride. I added 15lbs to the weight of the bike just with heavy wet snow.
I like the Boar Surface 604, I like the design and execution and the tire options of the bike. It just needs a decent mid drive (even a BBS02 would be better, although a BBSHD would be best) and a real 52v battery. These ebike companies need to start building ebikes that have the power that people really want, instead of what these ebike companies think people want.
Direct Drive vs Hub motors
I don’t want to spend a lot of time talking about the advantages and disadvantages of hub motors (read this article here), I will say only this. I’ve never ridden a hub motor that I’ve liked. If you want a Direct Drive motor (DD) that doesn’t totally suck you’re looking at a 25lb rear hub motor with custom torque arms and over 3000W getting pumped through it. There are hordes of ES builders that follow this formula which works OK for build street bikes, but is completely useless for the trails. It should be obvious why having a 25lb hub motor spinning around on your rear wheel is not going to be any fun on singletrack trails. Am I alienating all the endless-sphere and other large DD fans out there? Probably. Do I care? Not really.
A toaster oven for cheap plastic gears, AKA your crappy geared hub motor
I’ve destroyed every geared hub motor I’ve ever touched. The clutches and gears just can’t deal with real power and the motor is trapped in it’s shell like toast in a toaster oven. In every way they are just a bad design when you’re talking about pumping out lotsa watts. When you are talking about plowing through deep, wet snow you need insane amounts of power and your motors geared very, very low. The BBSHD is geared down 15:1 and when I’m going through deep powder I have a 30T in the front and a 36T in the rear meaning the motor is geared down to a whopping 18:1. The pedals spin so fast there is no way I can pedal along (futile in the extreme) but man does that baby plow through deep snow. Basically, you need to get going fast enough (over 5mph) that the bike will actually rise up on top of the snow and float along, as soon as you lose you’re momentum the back wheel is digging itself back down into the snow and you’re stuck. Riding in crappy conditions like that is hard, but it’s more fun than you can possibly imagine.
Since Mid drives have the bike gears to gear the motor down a real 2500W mid drive is going to perform better in my opinion than a 5000W DD motor, a 1200W BBS02 will outperform a 2400W DD hub motor and so on. You get twice the torque for about 1/2 the power usage because the electric motors can spin the speed that they WANT to spin at (fast) instead of the speed the rear wheel is turning (very slow). It’s just physics, nothing more.
That’s my kind of crazy
Top Speed vs Power
A decent 750W nominal mid drive will go about 25mph when geared right, 1000W nominal will go over 30mph and a 1500W will hit 35mph. Anything over 30mph you start really having to contend with a lot of drag from the increased air friction so it takes a lot more power. I have no problem going 40mph with 2500W of power, but in all honesty, it’s pretty scary going 40mph on a bicycle. The statistics are clear, you are much safer going 30mph than you are going 40mph on a bicycle. If you do get in an accident your chances of not dying at 30mph are much higher than at 40mph. I also think it’s crazy to ride any ebike without a helmet on trails or on the street, but I’m not really that crazy about helmet laws.
Is the stock BBS02/BBSHD even really street legal?
This is an interesting discussion that I’m not going to really discuss at length. If you program your BBS02 for 25Amps (most are) then, no it’s not legal. If you program your BBSHD for 30 Amps then again, not legal. Ebike manufactures and kit dealers will sell this motor as a 750W nominal motor but since the throttle puts out well over 1200W it just doesn’t fit the legal definition laid out in HR 727. Do I care? Not really. If you want your BBSxx mid drive to be ‘legal’ you need to program it to run at only 15 Amps so that the peak power is 750W. In all honesty, I can say you’d be pretty stupid to do that. It’s better to have the power available in case you need it (high power saved this woman’s life) than to dumb down your drive system because you think anyone really cares that it’s street legal or not (they don’t). If I lived in some place like Europe or Australia with a 250W limit I’d be just as belligerent or more so than I am about the US wattage limits. Legally if an ebike in the US has more than 750W it must be registered and insured as a ‘motor vehicle’ and have turn signals, mirrors and lights. That’s just not gonna happen with any of my ebikes.
Bafang is a Chinese company so they don’t really have to worry about American lawsuits that happen with accidents from ebikes equipped with their drivetrains. This leaves the ebike dealers who sell ebikes with the Bafang motors on them to have to deal with the liability of selling a motor for ‘street legal’ use that is really not street legal. Why am I even talking about this at all? Because more power is the direction that all the other ebike manufacturers need to move in if they want to start actually selling any real number of ebikes in the US. The biggest threat that faces these dealers is accident liability. America arguably has the most laughable heath care system in the world and whenever anyone ends up at the hospital the first question they have to answer is who are they going to sue to pay their medical bills.
Maybe we’ll get lucky and some other states will come up with intelligent legislation for ebikes instead of just banning them like NYC does
Let’s look at current sales numbers. Pedego is the number one selling brand in the US and expects to sell a whopping (sarcasm here) 10,000 ebikes this year. Most of those will be sold in one of their 83 Pedego dealerships across the US. This breaks down to about 120 ebikes sold per store on average, or about 1 ebike every 3 days per store. While that might seem like a lot, just consider this, there are over 300 Million ebikes in China right now. Ebikes in China cost just over $300 on average and they are sold in every Grocery store I set foot in when I was there 10 years ago. They got so out of control that many large cities have banned ebikes (known as ‘silent killers’) from the major roads to cut down on the massive number of traffic fatalities that happen from people riding ebikes. Ebikes have the potential to solve most of the traffic problems in many of the major cities (not to mention global warming), but instead of embracing them in the US lawmakers shun them entirely. The only state to enact reasonable ebike laws is the sunny state of California where e-bike sales are booming. The California law defines three different levels of ebikes of which Type-3 is the only one I’m going to discuss here. Type-3 ebikes are not allowed on bike paths, they do require helmets and they can go 28mph on all bike lanes. In my opinion 28mph on a pedalec is a reasonable speed limit, while 20mph is not. It’s just too slow, the reason people get ebikes to begin with is to go faster than they could on a bicycle. My non-ebike roadbike will easily get up to 15mph on the level and it takes very little effort to keep it at that speed (think no sweaty crotch). If people are going through the trouble and expense to buy\charge\ride an ebike they want it to be significantly faster than a comparable non-electric road bike (more than 5mph).
Driving around Ithaca last year I decided to blow by a cop sitting in traffic on my ebike in a bike lane doing over 30mph. Much to my chagrin, I was completely ignored. The reality in the US is that if your ebike looks like a bike you can probably go 30 mph where ever you want and get away with it. I understand why the sue-happy state of NY is hesitant to embrace ebikes, but I’m not going to wait around for the legislation to catch up with the technology. I’m just going to see what I can get away with and deal with the court systems if and when I have to. In the 40 years I have bicycled obsessively, I’ve been hit by cars 3 times (all on bikes not ebikes) and only once was it my fault, the other 2 were hit and runs (probably didn’t want to get sued and both times I ended up unconscious and in the hospital). The reality is that most accidents involving bikes are generally the automobiles fault, and I’m hesitant to even ride on the roads as most drivers are phone obsessed zombies propelling their 4000 lb rocket of steel down the road while trying to text their friends or update their facebook posts. No thanks, I’m much happier in the woods where the trees don’t move and all I have to worry about is getting shot by disgruntled hunters.
The craptastic $5800 Felt Lebowski, you’re better off giving your money to strippers
Why am I writing this article other than to just rant? I really would like it if the ebike dealers in the US would wake up and start selling products that people actually wanted to buy at prices that they actually wanted to pay. If they insist on peddling underpowered 350W craptastic motors then they should be selling them dirt cheap like the $693 shipped Sondors e-bike that Ivars Sondors has sold 17,000 of. If they want to charge more, then the bikes should actually perform better. Why would anyone in their right mind spend $5800 on a Felt Lebowski with a 400W motor? The price/performance ratio on a bike like that is just not there. For less than half of that price I can build my own fatbike with a much better motor, battery and bike like the Phat Phuk for $1850. If you’re too lazy to build your own then for $2953 you can get the 4 Seasons 3000 KHS ebike with Snowshoe XL tires and a 50 Amp Ludicrous controller and a 20Ah battery that will put out 50 Amps cont from Lunacycle right here. I was so impressed with the 4 Seasons 3000 when I visited Lunacycle that I actually bought one from them to build up with a BBSHD Ludicrous controller (review here). For half the price you get an ebike that is 2500W instead of 400W and has a 52v 20Ah battery that will dump 50 amps rather than a 36v 11Ah battery. Court from EBR rated the Felt Lebowski a 10 out of 10, I’ve ridden that e-bike and I’d rank it a solid 3 out of 10 for the insane price and total lack of power. Ebike reviewers may have a heavy slant towards the bikes and brands that are advertising on their site, or maybe they just have low expectations (I find that having low expectations helps my wife get by in dealing with me).
Six times the power, twice the range, half the price of the Lebowski (no torque sensing or warranty) This ebike is a much better investment than giving your money to strippers
The best ebike to electrify is one that you already have. If you have a fatbike, I’ll bet you my favorate hamster that once you electrify it, you’ll never go back to riding a non eFatty again. Right now you can get a 52v 13.5Ah shark pack and a 100mm BBSHD that will do 1500W all day long for $1099 right here. Think 2-3 hours to install on any 100mm fatbike and another $50 for a 30T Luna Mighty Mini ring and your winters will never be the same again. Be aware that at high power levels (over 1000W) on a mid-drive that is ridden hard, stuff on the bike is gonna break. Bicycles are designed for about 350W of power (all you can put out) not 1200W-2500W so breaking bike parts is the natural order of things. Suck it up and learn to fix stuff yourself, it’s worth the time and effort. Luna ebikes come without a warranty because at 2500W you’re pretty much guaranteed to trash stuff on the bike and not having a warranty keeps the prices insanely low. The important thing is that the battery and the motor hold up to the abuse, bike components are generally cheap to fix.
The time has come for an ebike revolution. Don’t waste your money on crappy, overpriced ebikes with tiny motors and tiny batteries. Build an ebike that have plenty of power and is still reliable enough to last (I’ve built 15 of them). When it comes to the many ebike review sites on the internet I’d take them all with a grain of salt, whenever I read them I have to wonder ‘what are these people on, and where can I get some’? Whatever you buy, make sure it’s got a big 52v battery and make sure that it doesn’t have a hub motor. For deep, wet powder and soft sand the 50Amp BBSHD Ludicrous is the king, tandem and cargo bikes BBSHD will do just fine and for singletrack dirt trail riding I still feel the BBS02 is the best weight/performance/value out there.
High powered mid drives all the way. Nothing else compares.
Ride on.
ElectricBike-Blog.com 
750W is ‘store legal’. ‘Street legal’ power varies by state; 1000W here in Oregon for instance.
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E-bike is a new way for commuting. It is easy and convenient to ride. It can save a lot of time. I got one electric bike from eskute.co.uk, which really helps me
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Loved your way of thinking. Just got my Cyclone running. Haven’t opened it up yet That’s for the daylight . It’s a monster. Power and speed is a good thing
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First off, I totally agree about the over-priced, under-spec’d bikes for sale. I too refuse to buy a bike – instead, I built a 1200w commuter (soon to be 1500w) because I’d rather be going 30+ mph than limited to 28 mph on those long straight roads. One thing you have not touched on but at least some ebikers care about is a torque sensor, which the Bafang BBS-series are sorely lacking. Having built several ebikes, this is something I also now refuse to be without. My commuter uses a TDCM bottom bracket from ebikes.ca and I soon will have a TSDZ2 500W 48V for the trails. Personally, if I just want to use a throttle, I might as well get a moped, motorcycle, or electric motorcross bike. But I actually want a workout (not just pedal along with a cadence sensor). I hope that some outfit such as Luna would address this and put out some bikes with torque sensors. The only one I know if that you can buy is the Juiced HyperFat.
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Just a courtesy reply. My philosophy is each bike / owner uses it for different needs. Please read my blog
Jack Your comment is awaiting moderation.
December 3, 2017 at 11:56 pm
Lots of good and different comments on ebike speed and wattage . I live in South Florida and ride my bike
often. It is a custom built mountain bike. Diamondback with 26 ” x 2.5 ” wheels. Not expensive. I looked at retail and online bikes. I wanted a trail / road bike that had power, speed, and range that I could enjoy wildlife
viewing off road. Also to enjoy street / sidewalk cruising . It is not for commuting. It is a bike for pleasure.
The second purpose was to go to my local watering hole without driving my car. This bike is 72v with a 3000 watt rear direct drive motor. It will go thru any off-road terrain and also ride comfortably on the streets
and sidewalks.Think of it as a Porsche or Range Rover. A Porsche may do 180 mph but nobody does that.
The bike will do 45 mph if you hit it. But there is no need to go 45 mph. It has the reserve power if needed.
All the power / speed necessary if you want to kick it up thru the trails. And road speed if you want a thrill.
When coming home from the watering hole, you can basically coast it at a legal 15- 20 mph and no Cop will even give you a second look. No pedaling required. The 500w or 750w store bought bikes are night and day
compared to this bike. If you do not abuse the speed and power not a soul in the world will bother you.
The bike is meant for experienced riders of course. Not available in any retail store or online.
It has a specific purpose for my needs and I truly enjoy it. Be careful and drive ” legal” and it is a blast.
Top seed about 50 mph. Range about 30 miles. Torque it will spin dirt or sand and pull the front end up
at takeoff. Cost about 1500.00.
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What specific set up did you buy.
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I have a 2016 Novara Madrona hard tail w/120mm travel SunTour front shock, hydraulic disk brakes (Fr:180mm & Rr:180mm). It has 27gears (3 chainring front & 9 ring cassette rear). I want to use this bike to convert and I want to use the Bafang BBSHD (1000w). What configuration should I buy. Note, I am willing to buy whatever I need so please don’t let price effect your recommendation! I am on the fence for lack of experience with this kind of build on whether I should be getting the 48v versus the 52v or the chainring choice and what have you. Please help!!
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If you want it for trails I would get a BBS02 & 52v shark pack, Luna has them on special right now for $750 +75 for the 52v upgrade. I like having the lighter unit on the trails. That is dirt cheap.
If you must have the 1000W BBSHD then I would go for the 52v GA shark pack. The 42T Luna or Lekkie ring is probably your safest bet for a clean chainline. The BBSHD is going to be several hundred dollars more but will only perform nominally better and be 3 lbs heavier.
Karl
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Just discovered eBike building and this ais a great help. Wonder if a couple years later you’d make this sane recommendation and where do you stand on brake and gear sensors.
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Yeah not a fan of the gear sensor or ebrake cutoffs. Live fast die young. I stand by all the crap that I peddle.
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Karl, I’m curious on your take on a BBHSD vs the AWD Ivars destroyer bike with the front hub for snow, lots of snow, for 6 months of the year at (almost) end of the road Northern SK, Canada. In my context, I’d be using it for a 5 km commute rather than a 2nd car or snowmobile, (shorter when the lake freezes: not worried about street legal then!), minimal elevation.
I was thinking of getting a Sondors, keeping the rear stock motor with upgraded battery and controller, and then using the double gear double torque motor on Lunacycle for the front to make an AWD for added low speed torque. In your opinion would the added traction of AWD outweigh the benefits of the middrive for powder or on snowmobile tracks? If the middrive has equivalent traction in powder I’d look at getting a different fatbike all together: an aluminium one probably with front suspension, like the converted KHS on Lunacycle.
Enjoying your writing!
GT
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Ivars build is sub optimal for snow. BBSHD is good, Ludicrous controller is even better. The Ascent is over the top powerful, but I don’t know how well it would hold up in the snow and is the most expensive option.
Karl
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Thanks for the advice. Cheers!
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I think it’s far more likely you would just rather land in the snow when you fall. Everyone that rides a bike falls… or is it that maybe you just don’t like getting dirty? Of course, this is coming from someone twice your age (At Least) and that doesn’t have to verify that the condom I am buying is x-small. I know riding is scary, little guy, especially on the roads. http://prntscr.com/g6m7v8 Think of this way tiger, with the global warming getting worse, you may not get to ride at all in the future.
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Living in the EU with the 250W continous rated power limit (of course… it’s a trick; continous rated power is limited, but that’s just what the manufacturer says you should run continously; peak power is unlimited, but EU manufacturers just don’t exploit that trick enough) it sort of makes me go all “meh” about buying an e-bike.
I can even live with the 25km/hr assisted speed limitation: I can understand it’s purpose, but if I can’t climb a steep hill (which are common where I live) while maintaining this 25km/hr speed without pedalling like a maniac and getting all sweaty (showers at work around here are totally unheard of), what’s the point? Realistically, 1KW-1.5KW direct drive would be ideal for the actual roads where I live.
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I live in a hilly area that never gets snow. Anyone have recommendations for conversion kits for my current bike? (With student-friendly prices, preferably less than $1000) I have a rockrider btwin bike.
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Best deal out there right now is this one.
https://lunacycle.com/bafang-bbs02-kit/
I have 8 BBS02’s and they are awesome.
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Thanks! Beginner to eBikes here, any other tools or parts that I need to install?
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If you are going to use Hydraulic fluid brakes don’t buy the bafang sensors as they are rubbish, try these instead – https://www.aliexpress.com/item/Electric-Bicycle-Hydraulic-Disc-Cut-Off-Power-Brake-BAFANG-SONDORS-Pasion-Ebike-Parts/32749432485.html?spm=a2g0s.9042311.0.0.laf43k
The are very cheap for what they are and the nearest you can get to these are the Tektro derado which cost hundreds more.
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Don’t even own a bike, just wandered to your site curious about ebikes. Literally read every single word. You are entertaining man. Spot on with identifying what people actually want too. Hope you keep this up, you just made a fan out of me!
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Lots of good and different comments on ebike speed and wattage . I live in South Florida and ride my bike
often. It is a custom built mountain bike. Diamondback with 26 ” x 2.5 ” wheels. Not expensive. I looked at retail and online bikes. I wanted a trail / road bike that had power, speed, and range that I could enjoy wildlife
viewing off road. Also to enjoy street / sidewalk cruising . It is not for commuting. It is a bike for pleasure.
The second purpose was to go to my local watering hole without driving my car. This bike is 72v with a 3000 watt rear direct drive motor. It will go thru any off-road terrain and also ride comfortably on the streets
and sidewalks.Think of it as a Porsche or Range Rover. A Porsche may do 180 mph but nobody does that.
The bike will do 45 mph if you hit it. But there is no need to go 45 mph. It has the reserve power if needed.
All the power / speed necessary if you want to kick it up thru the trails. And road speed if you want a thrill.
When coming home from the watering hole, you can basically coast it at a legal 15- 20 mph and no Cop will even give you a second look. No pedaling required. The 500w or 750w store bought bikes are night and day
compared to this bike. If you do not abuse the speed and power not a soul in the world will bother you.
The bike is meant for experienced riders of course. Not available in any retail store or online.
It has a specific purpose for my needs and I truly enjoy it. Be careful and drive ” legal” and it is a blast.
Top seed about 50 mph. Range about 30 miles. Torque it will spin dirt or sand and pull the front end up
at takeoff. Cost about 1500.00.
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How do I get this type in Canada???Greg
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If you understood my machines are for off road use only. For hog hunting. The whole point is to have a powerful off road machine that is classified as a bicycle and not a motor vehicle in Florida. If it looks like a bike and has pedals and does not burn gas it is a bicycle in Florida. In public hunt areas when the trail signs say No Motor Vehicles Allowed. These are allowed. To get thru mud wallows and sugar sand you need the power. I hope this clears up your misunderstanding. Have a good day.
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If you understood my machines are for off road use only. For hog hunting. The whole point is to have a powerful
off road machine that is classified as a bicycle and not a motor vehicle in Florida. If it looks like a bike and has
pedals and does not burn gas it is a bicycle in Florida. In public hunt areas when the trail signs say No Motor
Vehicles Allowed. These are allowed. To get thru mud wallows and sugar sand you need the power. I hope
this clears up your misunderstanding.The second point is that the DD motor is silent and waterproof. Also
no pedaling up and down or moving chain and gears to scare game away. For my application it is far better
than the alternative. Have a good day.
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250w here in NSW au but really 250w come on, that might be suitable for a kid on kids bike but a decent size adult is in need of at least 500+.
Ice chosen to opt in @ 1000w thx to BBSHD & thx to white rub in transferable lettering.
My BBSHD now states it’s a 250w.
Happy 😃 Days.
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Here in Florida it is a new industry. I build 72v 3000w bikes that rock. When the law comes down
on them. Then we will scale down. God Bless the Queen Hats off to you down under Jack.
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250w here in NSW au but really 250w come on, that might be suitable for a kid on kids bike but a decent size adult is in need of at least 500+.
Ice chosen to opt in @ 1000w thx to BBSHD & thx to white rub in transferable lettering.
My BBSHD now states it’s a 250w.
Happy 😃 Days.
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I ride my human powered mountain bike daily. I’ve been reading as much info as I can before I build my first ebike.
As I read reviews and aricles on different options and costs to build an ebike I keep thinking the same thing. Why would I spend $1200-$1500 to build a bike that max speed gets me 25, maybe 30ph?
I live by the beach in Florida, A1A is the primary road that I travel. 4 lanes (5 if you count center turn lane, and no bike lane. There short stretches of bike Lanes which suddenly end at times and forces you on to the sidewalk. Which creates more obstacles and dangers. Cars pulling out of a parking lot rarely stop before the sidewalk, they fly out and stop before hitting the road. It’s enough to make me not want to ride at all.
If going to build an ebike I need it to keep up with traffic, so I can safely use a lane when needed. Otherwise I can buy a used gas scooter for a fraction of what most of these “popular” ebikes are offering.
Thanks for writing this article, I like your attitude. Btw, I think the fat tire bike would be a blast on the beach! If I build it, I’ll send pictures and videos…
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I live in Tokyo. It is of course completely urban but there are some significant slopes… My previous front hub driven Panasonic had a 24v 250w Panasonic branded, geared hub and was an absolute pleasure on the level… limited to cut off all assistance at 32km/h.
The only problem with front drive was that the front wheel would often spin when trying to cycle up the central bike isle of stairs that we have for our multi-storey bike parking…I would have to stand up and consciously lean forward as I pedalled to make sure the front wheel would have enough traction!
I’ve just picked up 1000W hub motor Nireeka for $1099… It has a legal, urban Pedal Assist Torque profile for EU and Japan but I’m sure the authorities won’ be happy if they find it can be reprogrammed by a bluetooth connected iPhone. Anyway, for a $1000 considering it’s carbon fibre, who cares?
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Great story i agree for the most part, im somewhat new to ebikes but been on motorcycles since 3. I got a rear hub drive bike got it home was upset with the lack of performance, barely could hit 25mph. I right away got a new 50w controller and ditched the 48v battery for 74v got it set up. My cycle analysts powered up removed all restrictions now im happy. I run around town usually 30mph but in heavy traffic i have no problem pacing cars up to 45mph. Even had my bike impounded by local law enforcement not for speeding but operating a “motorised” vehicle without a valid licence.The next day i went to watch commander explained to him as i did the officer in California ebikes do not require a licence. He wanted to be sure checked the laws couldnt determine if i was in the right or not, he asked me to give him a bit of time to check with traffic detective. I waited a bit called the detective he said he corrected the watch commander and they were retrieving my bike as we speak. My advise to anyone ridding make sure if you ride the streets know the law my bike is not legal but they never checked the bike. As long as you can show the computer will limit speed to 28mph who cares what the wattage is. When your out of town unlock it and have fun.
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AMEN
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So, I agree with everything said but, what if I don’t need to go in deep snow. What if I just need to climb 1200ft in four miles on pot hole ridden back roads that are sometimes just dirt. This is going to be my first build and I’m broke so I’m looking to build something as inexpensive as possible to start that will do the job. I have a few old mountian bikes, that I can use. I think I’d like to use an old Trek aluminium frame with 26x 1.95 tires. I have a Giant with Judy’s on the front but, I don’t think I need the suspension for this. So, I was thinking about getting a Mxus XF15, 350w geared hub for the rear with a 48v13.5Ah battery, programable controller, and computer. I thought I’d add another XF15 for the front hub, as I get more cash. Any thoughts or suggestions on this plan? Obviously, I’d rather be building the really muddy bike above but, I need to start somewhere. Also, I don’t know why but, I hate the look of mid motors. Silly but, yeah.
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Hi all, love the blog. I’m just gaining knowledge in the ebike world before building something interesting. In the UK we have the 250W limit, which is laughable and pointless and kills ebike sales and take-up. I wrote to my MP once and said as much, and I also said that if he wanted me to get out of my nice comfortable/fast/dry/warm car then 250W and 15.5mph wasn’t going to cut it. He replied that I should look at the next step up from ebikes which is electric motorbikes. He has a point I guess – ebikes, as they are legally, are at the bottom of a power and speed graph that runs up through mopeds – motorbikes – cars. Each step up brings added potential for third party injury/damage and I think that is a real concern of those in power looking in on this custom ebike world. Technology and cheap Chinese manufacturing has yet again overtaken the law and cultural consensus.
Honestly, I wouldn’t mind paying £50 a year for third party insurance on a 2kW 60v something or other.
We all need to be careful to nudge the law and consensus in the right direction – I really don’t want to see ebike a-holes on youtube doing 30mph on urban sidewalks….be careful, play nice.
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I was seriously considering buying a MATE X until I ready this blog. Now I am going to build my own fat tire ebike with a Luna setup. I do like the idea of a folding bike. I stumbled across this: https://www.lightinthebox.com/en/p/21-speeds-fat-bike-folding-bicicleta-wheels-26-frame-17-tire-4-0-lm-aluminium-alloy-black-hollow-rim-snow-bike_p5049454.html I cant really find a full suspension foldable full size fat tire bike, other than this one. I was thinking about fitting this bike with the luna, giving me a foldable fat tire bike. Thoughts?
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There is some metal around the BB that might interfere with the BBSHD. You can probably grind it down though. Bike modification is fun.
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I built a 1500W BBSHD. Funny thing about these laws limiting us to these artificial low power levels. They might be fine for a skinny someone on a flat bike path with the goal of 15 mph.
Where I live it is hills and more hills and I’m not skinny (yet). I make total use of the full 1500W from time to time to climb a hill or accelerate away from a dangerous intersection. Like Karl I plan to continue to ride all 1500W of power and tell a cop whatever he wants to hear. Normally I ride on PAS1 which is about 250W. As my fitness has improved I have lowered PAS1 from something higher to 250W. And I might lower it some more making PAS2 what PAS1 is now.
I still want 1500W on the throttle though for occasions when I need it. The trick of course if not to be a jerk on the road or the trails. As long as I’m not going warp speed nobody will even take a second look unless it is to note that my magic bicycle is rolling uphill without pedaling (I cheat when I’m tired).
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This is a great article with an attitude that needs to be repeated any time it has a chance. It is illegal for me to ride my bicycle/ebike on the sidewalk, but the slowest street in my city has a 25-MPH speed limit (PS, the 4,000-lb cars on those streets ride 30-MPH). I have a 30-MPH BBSHD, and if it was stolen, I would re-buy the same thing. 52V battery, and a smaller chainring is the winning formula. I have ridden past many cops and never been stopped
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Some want a Rimac, others content with a Prius. Who are we to judge? (Unless the Prius guy tries to convince you how bad ass it is.)
I say let the buyer define their own “just right”, whether 350 or 3500.
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Hmm… While I agree that more powerful bikes should be available, I don’t see a large problem classifying those as mopeds instead of bikes. It would be interesting to have a single model that could operate in both modes, but you would have to snap on a different controller or something like that. Then, when you want to ride on bike paths or whatever, you use the “eBike” controller, and otherwise you use the “moped” controller. The cops couldn’t be able to say you changed the settings when they stopped you or whatever.
Anyway, so far as I know, the 750 watt limit is “average” power, or at least that is how the 250 watt limit in Europe works, so motors capable of more can be sold as legal, because the controller limits the average power.
Also, with regards to the 750 watt power only being able to push at 20mph, that sounds very fishy.
I have a 250 watt eBike which will very quickly push be to 24kph, where it stops because that is the legal limit in Japan. If you.. ahem.. “upgrade” it, it will very easily push you to 35-40 kph (something like 23 mph), and it will do that up modest hills without issue. (There are numerous posts about this on Japanese forums) This is of course including that you have to pedal and put in your own power. If a 250 watt motor can do that, then 750 should be much much better at accelerating.
(Actually, it’s interesting because when I see I am approaching a red light, I always gear down. When the light turns green, I am usually across the street much more quickly than the cars).
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I live in San Diego where snow is just not in the program. Seems like the fat tire designs are overkill and presumably heavier (if you don’t pop for expensive stuff like carbon rims).
Q1. I was wondering why a more standard mountain bike wheel/tire assembly isn’t more commonly used on the performance designs. Looking around the web and most sites, the performance dual sport ones are fat tire.
Q2. I come from the motorcycle world, recently sold my Ducati and Bultaco and am thinking about a performance dual sport street legal machine. Is it reasonable to have both controllers for a legal 750W Class 3, and a 1500 or 2000W+ off-road spec and switch back n forth as desired? Thanks for the information on your blog and I appreciate the advice. Newbie Norm.
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Q1 I prefer having the suspension in the tire.
Q2 Just get a high power system and don’t drive like an a$$hat, you’ll be fine.
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Yeah, I get that impression. I asked a local police officer HTF they would know what the controller would allow? He told me that he has absolutely no idea about this, and a friend tells me he is making up “750W” stickers for his higher output bikes, just in case. I’d be fine with riding around circa 30mph and having the ability to get off the line as fast as most cars.
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H.R 727 is a widely misunderstood and misused law. It does not pertain to which electric bikes are or are not legal to own or ride in the USA, it is an amendment the Consumer Product Safety Act to provide that low-speed electric bicycles are consumer products. This amendment allows electric bikes rated under 750 Watts to be manufactured domestically or imported into the US without having to comply with federal motor vehicle standards which would require them to be subject to extensive regulations, testing, and certifications.
On top of that, H.R. 727 reads “electric motor of less than 750 watts” so an electric bike with a 750 Watt motor does not fall under its jurisdiction and only bikes with motors that are 749 Watt or less do.
The amendment does not specify if the 749 Watt power limit is continuous or intermittent though so that is up to the manufacturer or importer to decide, and a 749 Watt continuously rated motor could easily output 1500 Watts or more intermittently.
There is no federal law that limits how powerful an electric bicycle can be if it is homemade, however, most if not all states have laws which regulate how powerful an electric bicycle can be and/or how fast it can go, and if these regulations are exceeded then the bike falls under a moped or motorcycle category and may then require a motorcycle license to ride and/or vehicle registration and/or insurance and/or headlights, taillights, brake lights, turn signals.
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I have a work trike with a BS 36v ebike battery that the custom builder shouldn’t have known was not gonna be powerful enough to move this thing. I’ve struggled with it for over a year and now I’m ready to upgrade the motor—BIG TIME! Does anyone know an installer who can help me out with this? Thanks!
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Just buy a kit and throw it on. You’ll probably be happy with a $300 Cyclone 3000W kit. You’ll need a bigger battery too.
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I have a work trike with a BS 36v ebike battery that the custom builder shouldn’t have known was not gonna be powerful enough to move this thing. I’ve struggled with it for over a year and now I’m ready to upgrade the motor—BIG TIME! Does anyone know an installer who can help me out with this? Thank you!
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I totally agree with everything you said. I made my first Ebike. I put a 1500w bbshd 52v with EggRider on a sixthreezero pave n trail and loving every minute. Like you said going over 30 on a bicycle is a little bit scary but what fun ,,,,yeah baby ‼️‼️‼️‼️
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In Australia 250w is street legal and somehow people here think 750w is underpowered. Seriously? If you want to go the speed of a car then you should get a motorcycle and the registration and licencing that goes with it.
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I enjoyed it a lot thanks.
Wow, very interesting
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I would love to have one of the low geard high powered bikes you build for hunting, but here in nh we have to be less than 750w and 20 mph to be considered woods league. Anything over and i might as well just drop it off at the fish and game and save myself a 250$ ticket and loss of hunting license and confiscation of my truck. Anything over and you need registration and written permission from land owners everywhere you go. What im searching for is a 749w mid drive thats geared to pull me and a buck straight up.
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I’m sure there are ways to de-rate the power of the motor but keep the high torque configuration of the bigger 1000w + motors. Probably an option in the controller function. Not sure if you could find that in a 20 mph machine, class 2 here in California. We also have a Class 3 for 28mph bikes but they are pretty much banned from bike paths. A big Bafing hi-torque Class 2 750W sounds like your ticket, I’m sure it’s available somewhere.
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Bless you, Karl, but you obscure the difference between Racing / Creating and shared space transport. I race motos and teach MSF. Each has a place. Over powered, overhyped, oversold, under trained, under skilled, uninsured, unaccountable vehicles do not belong in shared pace. It’s unsafe. It is about communication. Without that skill , nobody should be on the road, let alone putting power machines out there without reflecting on impact.
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Reading this nearly 5 years after it was written, it still could not be more true. I just finished an efatty build of my own. So much more capable than pre-built hub drive ebike I was riding before. I’m never going back. Build something awesome.
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I like hub motors. There cheap and I run a full suspension 29″ MTB with 84v and it’ll smoke most mid drives on crazy steep , rocky , Double Black Diamond Single Tracks on Trail Forks…
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The use of the E-bike for transportation has significantly risen over the years. The introduction of electric bike solves most of the problems around traditional bikes. If you ever tried an E-bike before, you can tell how it feels.
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I am thinking of doing a DIY home build E bike can anyone recommend a motor? Please, I was thinking of using a starter motor but am thinking this is not designed to run for any length of time so likely to burn out rather quickly.
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If you have a few thousand dollars to invest in an alternative mode of transportation rather than a toy couple a BaFang BBSHD with a Rohloff Speedhub on a frame with enough room in the triangle to carry a 2000Wh lithium pack.
https://photos.app.goo.gl/ADgC6oyPM2gyrCq27
10 May 20 – 100 miles.
https://www.relive.cc/view/vMv85EGzYNO
https://photos.app.goo.gl/9ZbuKQNWsHtRH3Ft7
https://prnt.sc/sw0igi
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I get your argument about cars and their speed/power vs the legal limit for e-bikes but at the power/speeds you are talking about then doesn’t that make the bike a motorbike requiring it to be registered and also requiring a motor bike licence. What you are describing isn’t a bicycle it’s a motorbike where the pedals are really just revolving footrests.
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Thank you! For such information which is very helpful for us and for you since any problems can finish in a lawsuit I hope that you can continue to teach and train everyone of us so we have a safety ride with an e-bike
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