It’s My Mid-Drive And I’ll Fry If I Want To : The BBS02, BBSHD & Cyclone Shopping Guide

/ February 19, 2016

Several times a week I get asked the same question over and over by loyal readers just like you. What mid-drive should I buy?

Although it seems like a simple question, getting the right motor for your application can be a daunting task for the uninitiated. This article will help future mid-drive buyers make an intelligent and informed decision that will bring you years of fun and enjoyment.

choices

BBS02 750? BBSHD 1000W? Cyclone 3000W? Decisions, Decisions.

This article is mostly for people who have already decided that they want to go with a mid drive. If you are still on the fence about whether to buy a direct drive, geared hub or mid drive motor you should read this article here. There are benefits and drawbacks to each electric motor system.

Lots of people send me email telling me they are going to buy a 350W BBS01 or some other such nonsense. I’m not sure what kind of god-fearing American would opt to buy a 350W drive train when the legal limit in the US is 750W, but to each his own. The wimpiest mid drive I own is about 8 BBS02 750W units, all with the old crappy controllers. If you insist on having less power then just buy a BBS02 and program it for fewer amps. Under no circumstances should you ever buy a BBS01 in my opinion. The BBS01 is yesterday’s news.

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The 750W BBS02 is quickly becoming a classic. The BBS01 is already over the hill.

The first question you have to ask yourself when considering a mid drive is are you planning it for a commuter build, or a trail riding build or both. Each different application calls for a wildly different set of characteristics. For commuting, you will want a motor that can run at whatever power level you want to run it at for extended periods without overheating. For singletrack trail-riding you usually want short bursts of power to overcome hills and obstacles, but most of the time is spent with the motor running at very low power because you rarely want to go full speed in the woods. This gives the motor a chance to cool off in between hills & obstacles. When trail riding you will want to gear your motor low enough so that you can climb 20-degree grades with ease. For commuting I usually gear my bikes such that they can climb 10-degree grades with ease, but nothing that is paved is going to be much steeper than that (usually).

The BBS02 works quite well on PAS-only mode which rarely will put out more than 800 watts and with most setups will allow you to pedal around at 25 mph. Once you hit the throttle you can start going quite a bit faster, especially when going down hills. On the uphills if you motor is already really hot and your gear is too high and you give it full throttle then you are risking catastrophic controller failure which is usually enough to ruin anyone’s day.

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The 1000W BBSHD is a monster that loves soft sand. Currently my favorate drive unit.

The BBSHD on the other hand rarely goes much over 1000W when using it in PAS mode, but when you give it full throttle it will go over 1500W if you are running it on a fully charged 52v battery. The BBSHD does not even really get that warm when running it on full throttle for extended periods, as long as there are no hills. With just the PAS, it generally will hum along at about 30mph and with the full throttle, it will go a little faster than that. Once you get above 30mph the wind resistance starts to be a real bitch.

The Cyclone doesn’t seem to work properly with the PAS kit that Lunacycle.com sells with it. At full throttle on a 48v battery it hovers at around 30-35mph on the flats. With a 52v battery you can get into the high 30’s and with a 72v battery which is the most that this controller can take I’m sure you can get over 40 on the flats (this is untested by me). With a 48v battery (2000W) this drive system does not even get very warm running continuously at full throttle. I would say that this mid drive is probably a 2500W nominal unit even though it is sold as a 3000W drive unit.

cyclone

The 3000W cyclone paired with a Nuvinci N171 which seems to work fine at high power levels. This setup has a 36T Chainring and a 18T cog and works well on the road & the woods.

The next question you need to ask yourself is do you have any interest in actually getting exercise when you go out on your bike. If you want to get exercise when commuting you really need to get a system with PAS. Without the pedal assist I always just end up leaning on the throttle and forgetting about pedalling entirely. If you have to pedal to make the bike go then I find that not only will I pedal, but that I will also tend to push pretty hard on the pedals. At 2500W with the cyclone system your pedal effort always feels pretty much useless (why was I pedalling again?). On the BBS02 and the BBSHD you generally can tell that whatever energy you’re throwing into the drive train is not totally going to waste as these two drive units can struggle on steep hills and at higher speeds.

For trail riding another huge thing is weight. The BBS02 is pretty light and will add about 10lbs to the weight of your ebike, the BBSHD with everything adds closer to 13 lbs and the Cyclone kit weighs in at a hefty 16lbs. Any of these three is still much better than running around with a giant 25lb hub motor, but if you want a light and nimble ebike that feels like a mountain bike then generally you will want the lightest drive system you can that doesn’t suck.

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The BBSHD can plow through anything including several inches of frozen mud

If you plan on going through deep, wet powder then the BBS02 tends to be a little underpowered for that. If you gear it low enough then you can pretty much plow through almost anything, but if the drive unit is geared too low then suddenly you’re not really having that much fun anymore. In order to keep your fun up, you must keep your speed up. The BBSHD or the Cyclone both produce as much power as I feel like I need to easily plow through about 5-6 inches of heavy wet powder (which has an insatiable appetite for watts). I still ride the BBS02’s in the winter time, but only when there is less than 3 inches of snow on the ground.

The Cyclone, in my opinion, does not really shine that much over the BBSHD in the woods. The extra weight and the way the controller ramps up power leaves me thinking that the 10 extra amps is not really worth it. Although the Cyclone is a lot cheaper, the components are pretty cheap. When I started trail riding on the Cyclone things started to break on my drive train which got pretty annoying. I ended up forgetting about using a freewheel on the rear and instead settled on a 18T fixie as the Cyclone already has 2 other freewheels, one on the crank and one on the motor gear. This is a huge problem with high power mid drives, they tend to break bicycle stuff which is generally designed for human beings not 5hp electric motors. Although the Cyclone put out insane power when I swapped the 42T front chainring with a 36T chainring, I still felt like the only time I needed the extra power is going up very steep hills. This is the place that the Cyclone really shines as it can fly up steep trails like nothing I’ve ever ridden. The downsides are that the entire frame tends to flex when it’s powered up, the large ziptie that the kit ships with is a joke (use 2 metal hose clamps instead) and when the motor torques under power it gets about 1 mm away from hitting the drive side pedal. The whole system is just a little on the sketchy side for me, and I haven’t even started testing it at more than 52v yet. Yikes.

dark side

My feeling is that the Cyclone is more fitting for a high-speed commuter ebike for hilly towns like Ithaca, NY my Alma-doesn’t-Mater.

The BBSHD is a different animal entirely. Over the last 4 months of hard singeltrack abuse it has proven to be very reliable. In the deep powder this drive unit is insanely fun, and it comes in 4 different BB sizes that will fit about any fat bike. If you want to put a drive unit on a fat bike, for riding in the woods and on the snow then I would say it is no contest, get a BBSHD. Although the extra weight and the totally overbuilt construction really pissed me off 4 months ago when I first got these drive units I can say with some certainty that I’m over it now.

If you want to build a high-speed commuter that will scream up almost any hill without overheating and will accept any ebike battery pack from 48v up to 72v then the Cyclone is a great choice. This ebike will run all day long at 35mph with a 48 or 52v pack and close to 40mph with a 60v or 72v pack. Although performance will be comparable with other large DD hub motors that work at the 3000w+ power level, this mid drive will really shine on steep hills, which no DD deals with well, regardless of the power you dump into it. The tradeoff you have to make is in reliability, running 3000W though a bicycle drive train for any length of time and you’re going have issues. This can be a real bummer if it leaves you stranded in the middle of nowhere. This motor works the best if it has gears on it. You can use an N171, Nexus 3 or a Sturmey Archer 3 speed IGH which I have tested with this power level and found acceptable. Any other Nuvinci hub like the 330, 360 or 380 will not survive the Cyclone and likely other IGH with more than 3 gears will likewise self-destruct at 3000W of power. You can use a normal cassette and derailleur setup but the chains will wear out quickly and if you shift under load you’re going to have lots of problems.

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When there is no snow on the ground this is my favorite bike, A BBS02 with a Nuvinci 380 programmed with Karl’s special sauce. It’s also one of the cheapest builds you can do.

One of the biggest issues with builders is cost. Surprisingly the Cyclone is the cheapest of the bunch even though it has the highest power at $390 from Lunacycle.com here. This kit should not be the first mid drive ebike kit you buy as the installation is pretty tricky. The price on the BBS02 has been changing quite a bit lately and can be found for $545 in the US here. You can buy it much cheaper from China but beware of non-reputable Chinese resellers. The BBSHD is the most expensive option at $699 here, however it is also the most refined and robust of all three drive units and has 4 different sizes to fit most common bottom brackets. For the BBS02 & BBSHD I recommend getting an aftermarket chainring with them (Lekkie Bling Ring or Luna Mighty Mini or Eclipse) which will add about $100 to the price.

The BBS02 750W still a decent choice for a trail bike if you are really concerned about extra weight. As long as the snow is not too deep and the hills are not-to-steep then you should still be able to have a lot of fun with this mid drive. If you have a cargo bike, carry an extra passenger or you want to go over 30 mph on the road then you should forget about the BBS02 entirely and opt for a BBSHD instead. If you want to go 35mph+ all the time on the road or have a single track trail bike that screams up hills then the Cyclone is the best bet.

Ride on.

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26 thoughts on “It’s My Mid-Drive And I’ll Fry If I Want To : The BBS02, BBSHD & Cyclone Shopping Guide”

  1. Good article, but a point about ebike legality: The federal law ebike enthusiasts frequently refer to as setting the 750W limit (and I assume you’re referring to as well) only defines what ebikes the Consumer Products Safety Commission has jurisdiction over. It also arguably only applies to prebuilt bikes, not DIY setups.

    Essentially it says that for ebikes with a power up to 750W and speed limited to 20 mph, the CPSC can set product safety rules and requirements. Overvoltage protection, brake cutouts, things like that. At greater power and speed, the Department of Transportation has jurisdiction for setting those rules.

    Critically, that law does *not* define what bikes are legal for use on public roads and paths. Those rules are entirely up to state and local governments, and they vary widely. In New York State, for instance, there is no such thing as a legal ebike for use on public roads and paths. California has graduated rules for different power levels and speeds. The laws in some states are still essentially based around mopeds and allow power equivalents of 2 or 3 horsepower.

    I suppose the point of all this is, know what your state and local laws are when choosing your ebike and where you ride it. They are more important than the commonly cited federal law.

    For reference: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electric_bicycle_laws#United_States
    This is reasonably accurate, though the table of state laws may be out of date.

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  2. I was disappointed to see you take on the big grunt and go faster attitude towards the BBS01. When it’s a very reliable drive, and provides all the power and budget batteries, for a very large market segment. I talk with people every day that don’t want to charge threw mud, snow , and sand. They just want to ride. But I get it having upgraded to a pair of BBSHD. But the Mrs. hates them, and would rather scoot around the bike path at no more than 22MPH on her BBS01. That said I don’t ever expect you to address that crowd, at least not until you reach grandpa age and join us with a mounted cane rack on your crank forward powered eBike.

    So we old farts continue to come here and glean all the great information we can. Hoping secretly that you’ll never have to grow up too! Great fun watching your antics Karl. Just remember some of your biggest fans can’t keep up your pace. But hey, thanks for the vicarious adventures. I’d have probably said the same thing 30 years ago…

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  3. Not sure how the BBS HD is going to do 30mph given the restricted (current) chain wheel options?

    I guess a 3 speed 29er on a 46t would do the trick…. 🙂

    Has any one done the calcs?

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    • I have a BBSHD set up with a luna 42t chainring on a 10 spd fatbike. I haven’t actually measured my speed but the speedometer on the bafang unit I can get it up to 25-26 mph. Considering that I have not set the appropriate wheelsize for a fat tire bike my real speed is probably about 20% more (the circumference of a fat-tire is approximately 2.4 meters compared to 2.0 meters on a regular 26, 2-inch tire).

      I actually reach top speed on the second highest gear on flats. This is likely due to me being a fat ass (245 lbs). So there are limits to the gearing/motor power and if you are a larger person a 46t wouldn’t add anything in terms of speed. The higher gearing does make it easier to pedal along and I do use the top gear when I am pedaling in PAS mode and want to do some of the work myself.

      The one benefit of the BBSHD not mentioned for people who do not care about speed (such as Tom) is that the added torque/power makes it easier for the motor to operate at normal pedaling cadences. I am still in the process of finding the settings I want but I am working on getting a PAS mode that will provide some power but still gives me a good workout for the “getting home” portion of my commute when I don’t mind getting sweaty.

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    • I get 25 mph readout on my BBSHD on my fatbike (42t up front). Considering I haven’t changed the wheelsize in the computer this is probably about 20% lower than my actual speed (a standard 2 inch mtb tire is approximately 2m in circumference, a fatbike tire is about 2.4 m). Thus 30 mph is very reasonable.

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      • Also should add I am a bit of a fat ass (250 lbs) and my topspeed is actually in the 2nd highest gear on my 10 speed with the luna 42t up front. Thus a larger chainring might not have any benefit depending on rider weight.

        The bigger chainring would help with pedaling cadences. I do find myself using the top gear in PAS 1 mode when I feel like actually sweating a bit (I ride my ebike in “motorcycle mode” to work so that I don’t have to shower then bike home either manually or in PAS 1 mode depending on how fast I want to get home).

        That’s also the big advantage the BBSHD has over the others. If you do want to actually pedal for excerise it has the torque to better tolerate the lower RPMs. Of course the ultimate BBSHD would be actually torque sensing. If there ever is a 750+w torque sensing unit I would jump on it in a heartbeat.

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    • yeeeahhhhhh.. loved the comparison….

      I tested the BBSHD this week with wide MTB tires, 42T chainring 48v 13s battery with less than 40% battery left… (definitely not the best combination for top speed) I did 59kmh (36.6mph) pedaling on flat… would be a bit faster with 46T… but 30mph I would say is a more realistic number for most riders depending on the rider, tires, wind and blablabla.. =]

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      • I have a bbs02 on a 700c bike with a 52volt battery I’m currently have a 48 tooth stock chain ring I used the bike for commuting and as of now I can get it going about 32 miles per hour just cuddling in the highest assist level and smallest rear Cog.now this is the second bbso2 motor the first one burnt out the internal nylon gears Within 22 days of purchasing it so this time around I put mobile Greece 28 all in the secondary gearhoping it will do you better than the moly grease I used the first time but my question is should I get a 42 tooth Bling Ring I’m just worried about losing top speed but I also think it would probably be a lot easier on the internal gears so give me some feedback on your opinion thanks for reading this and I hope to hear back! POWWERRR!!!!

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  5. There is still a place in my heart and my stable for the 36v 500watt bbs02. I use it for 20″ wheel folding rental bikes. I found that with a larger-voltage motor these little bikes tended to pop unintentional wheelies. And people went faster than is prudent on 20″ wheels. So power and speed aren’t the only considerations unless you are a macho man like Karl.

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    • Yeah, I also have one of these 36v 500w BBS 02s. On a 20 wheel inch folding bike.

      25a stamped on the out side of the controller, plug it in, 20a limited on the software. (and can’t be programed to go any higher) Hmm, still a good bit of kit but not quite doing what if says on the tin.

      I now have another 36v 25a 500w on order from a reputable dealer. Hopefully this one’s the real deal.

      Be careful of there. The other 750w / 48v / 25a I have is brilliant though.

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      • The early bbs02 6 fet controllers (roughly early to mid 2014, but don’t quote me) could only be programmed to 20a max, but they would add some solder to the shunt, to up the current to typically about 28a.
        If you measure the current with a CA or wattmeter, i think it will confirm this.
        the 36v controllers don’t seem so easy to pop a fet as the 48v models.

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      • Thanks for your response Paul.

        I’ve measured the wattage with my c963 it seems to peak at about 600-700w. I guess they ran out of solder that day?

        28 amp would be good, would it be a simple case of getting the soldering iron out and putting it somewhere?

        Your spot on with the age of the unit I got it early 2014.

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  6. Do you have any plans on testing the Tangent Ascent mid-drive motor? I just learned of it and it sounds like a beast of a motor that you would probably be interested in. Thanks.

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  7. Pingback: How To Buy Your First Ebike Or Ebike Kit And Not Get Punked | ElectricBike-Blog.com

  8. I recently (today) tried to upgrade the 350 watt eRad mid drive on my Origin 8 crawler to a 1000 watt (was going for the 750 but they didn’t have one at the time and gave me the 1k for the same price) but the shop couldn’t mount it. The motor hit the rear frame, and if the tech shimmed it out, the chain was at to much of an angle to the rear sprocket and derailed. These motors look like the fit more flush against the crank. Is that the case? Would one of these work on my Origin 8 fat tire bike? (NuVinci drive)

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  9. Karl since I will be switching to 3spd IGH what rear cog and front cog would you recommend, as of right now it has 55T front and 24T in back. Just keep it the same? I don’t need to sell the bike anymore since I have a friend that will build me a new wheel for me and no charge but he wants the N330 for trade.

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  10. Hi, your post helped me a lot to choose my mid-drive, but I’m seeing now that the weight you listed for the cyclone doesn’t seem to match the weight of the lunacycle kit (https://lunacycle.com/cyclone-mid-drive-3000w-planetary-kit/)
    They list a weight of 12 pound while you mention 16 pound. They even mention that it’s lighter than the BBSHD. Could you let me know how you came up with that figure? I though about the controller but it’s seem to only weight about 1 pound. Wish I had a detailed weight-in of a cyclone kit’s parts like you did with the BBSHD.

    Thanks

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